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Answering Anarchist Critics: Part 3


Too Capitalist?


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Addressing previously assembled anarchist concerns about participatory economics turned out to require too much space for one essay so I broke it into five parts. This is part 3. Please skip around however you like. 

 

 

The institutions parecon deems necessary for a fulfilling, free, informed, self managing and classless association of workers and consumers, are:

 

  • workers and consumers self managing councils in place of private ownership and top down decision making
  • remuneration for duration, intensity, and onerousness of socially valued work (plus need when medical or other reasons warrant) instead of remuneration for property, power, output, or only need
  • balanced job complexes equalizing the empowerment effects of jobs instead of corporate divisions of labor that include monopolization of empowering positions by a few
  • and participatory planning (or cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs) instead or markets, central planning, or combinations of the two, for allocation

 

 

Too Capitalist?

 

Criticism: One small branch of anarchism called primitivists, condemns Parecon for including work and workplaces, inputs and outputs, production and allocation and takes for granted the continuation of industrial civilization.

 

Response: Of course parecon takes for granted that human societies will continue producing goods and services and that there will be work in workplaces with inputs such as resources, intermediate goods, and labor - but also people and social relations. And also outputs in the same categories, including produced goods and services - but also people and social relations, waste, and pollution. 

 

Parecon takes these things for granted because not having these things would kill most of the world’s population and leave the few who survive with horribly restricted existences. 

 

Work, workplaces, and inputs and outputs accompany social life of all types. To escape alienation, oppression, and ecological degradation by doing away with industry and workplaces - much less all institutions - is to solve one problem by creating even more extreme problems, including a gigantic graveyard of unnecessary corpses. Is it possible that one day the technology will exist so that all the food and other material needs of human beings will be instantaneously available without an ounce of human effort needing to be expended? Who knows? But at a minimum it is true that such technology will not exist for a very long time, that until that time we will need to provide for these human needs, and that there are various ways to do so: most of these ways are oppressive, unequal, undemocratic, and non-participatory. Parecon is offered as a way that has the opposite characteristics.

 

 

 

Criticism: Wages imply wage slavery. Remunerating for duration, intensity, and onerousness of work is capitalistic and thus morally decrepit. An anarchist economy would implement, instead, the maxim that we should all work according to ability, and consume according to need. Parecon, with its incomes and budgets, is capitalism in disguise. It is not a system that elaborates mutual aid.

 

Wage slavery exists when you sell your ability to do work for a wage determined by relative bargaining power and where the buyer must try to extract as much actual labor as possible. Slavery, for example, is not wage slavery. In slavery you are sold, rather than your selling just a number of hours of your ability to do work. 

 

Parecon is not wage slavery either. And in parecon it isn't simply that there are no owners of workplaces, and thus no one to buy your ability to do work. It is also that after freely becoming part of a workplace, your level of work, your intensity of work, your character of work, and your manner of work, are all under the control not of some grand authoritarian buyer - but of yourself and your peers whom you work with. Likewise, the income you get for your work is not a function of power, but derives from a just norm that applies universally to all who work, as well as from how your particular workplace implements that norm. 

 

Suppose you work in a participatory economic firm. You, therefore, have a balanced job complex, as does everyone else. Suppose you work for the social average of (let’s guess) thirty hours a week, at average intensity, and that due to empowerment balancing, your job is also, overall, of average onerousness. Then, assuming the firm is producing outputs sought by others in the economy, you will earn the average income for society. You could earn more, or less, however, by working more hours, or more intensely, if your workmates agree that there is extra work for you to handle. You could also work less hours or less intensely, if workers agree with that choice for you, or maybe someone else wants to work less intensely, or for fewer hours, for example, so it is agreeable to workplace harmony that you work more, making up the difference, or vice versa. 

 

Now the anarchist critic, echoing a slogan of long lineage and wide appeal, says two things. First, the remuneration approach of parecon is capitalistic, and, in any case,  both morally and pragmatically flawed, with the latter due to perverse incentive effects. And second, the time honored idea that people should work to their ability and receive income based on their needs is a better norm for anarchists to advocate. It gets the job done, and with less dangers. So to reply to these matters, let's consider these two views, in turn.

 

First, is remuneration for duration, intensity, and (socially determined) onerousness of socially valued work (and of course according to need if one cannot work or has other special health needs) morally sound, and is it also sound for the incentives it offers, or is it flawed on either count? 

 

The moral question is not factual. It depends on one's preferences. But here is the issue at the heart of assessing equitable remuneration’s moral merits.

 

Two people work at the same balanced job complex in their workplace, which is at the social average so they need not have any tasks outside their main workplace. Suppose also that the average weekly duration of work in society, and in their workplace, is 30 hours. 

 

Suppose one of the two says I would like to work 40 hours this week, 10 hours more than average, and, indeed, I would like to do this every week for as long into the future as I can. I want to earn one third more because I really want to purchase a new violin. 

 

The second, in contrast, says I already have more stuff than I need, but I would like some more free time: I would like to work 20 hours a week, now and for as long as possible into the future, and get a one-third lower income. 

 

Would it be morally okay, assuming it was acceptable to the whole workforce in the sense of not disrupting other people's situations, to have these two people granted these changes?

 

What parecon says is that it is not only acceptable but morally warranted and correct that a person who works longer, harder, or doing more onerous tasks, one week, and less long, less hard, or at less onerous tasks another week, should earn more for the former than for the latter. On the other hand one should not earn more - which means one should not be able to take more of the social product for oneself - because one has property, or power, or a skill or talent, or luck of position, so that one's product happens to be more valuable. 

 

And of course, precisely how trade offs of duration, intensity, and onerousness and claims on income are mediated, and to what extent any one firm or industry wants to permit diverse and relatively finer gradations, or only less fine ones, are contextual matters for future determination which will occur largely in light of experience and special features of each firm and industry.

 

Parecon says, if you remunerate for property, power, or output - where output refers to the value of one's product - it will guarantee large differentials in income which will, in addition, be translatable into still larger future wealth differentials, in a vicious spiral of inequity. This steady widening income and wealth inequality would indeed be "capitalistic" in the intended sense of the critic's claim. But the parecon approach precludes such results. 

 

Parecon’s remuneration does nothing unjust. We all get a package - the work we do plus the income we get - and the package for everyone is fairly calibrated to everyone else by matching debits of work with benefits of income. More work (taking up our time) yields more income. Harder work (yielding exhaustion and preventing social interaction while working) yields more income. And getting stuck with more onerous conditions yields more income. In no way can the very modest extra income that one can earn from such choices be turned into assets that would generate still more extra income later. The differentials are relatively small and not able to piggyback. The arrangements of time and intensity and tasks must be agreed. And the benefits accrued aren’t a bonus, but merely offset the debits endured, in any case. The precise details of implementation from workplace to workplace, moreover, are the purview of the involved workers councils, remembering, however, that to be remunerated, labor must be socially beneficial. 

 

What about incentive effects? 

 

The pareconist says that with equitable remuneration they are just what they ought to be. Income earned for duration, intensity, and onerousness of socially valued labor provides an incentive to work longer (but not so long that the loss of leisure outweighs the gain in income), harder (but not so hard that the losses due to exertion outweigh the gain in income), and, when need be, to complete really onerous tasks that prove necessary outside of balanced job complexes (but not when the pain due to the onerousness exceeds the benefits due to the gain in income). 

 

In contrast, when remuneration is for property, the incentive effect is perversely to exploit others and to amass more property with which to do it ever more aggressively in the future. Likewise, when remuneration is for power, the perverse effect is that the powerful seek to amass more power and have the means to succeed, in an escalating spiral. When remuneration is for output, it is a mixed bag. Incentives to school oneself and become more productive have a good aspect, but are often vastly inflated beyond what is needed for the purpose. And payments for having talents - not for the training that goes into developing talents - has no useful incentive effect. I cannot change my genetic endowment due to the fact that a great singing voice or tremendous reflexes and strength are highly rewarded. 

 

Most anarchist critics don't really look too hard at the above issues. They agree that remunerating property, power, and (unlike for many socialists) output, too, is morally horrible and has perverse incentive effects as well. In a very few cases do they look at parecon's remuneration and actually have a substantive concern. These typically prove to be misunderstandings. Here are two.

 

The first goes like this. I work very hard but I don't think I should receive extra income for it. In fact, I find the prospect of getting extra pay for my hard work degrading. I work because it is a part of being a full and worthy person. I don't want to sully that with remuneration for effort I give because I want to.

 

Well, that’s not a problem. You needn't take the extra payment you are entitled to. If you don't take it, the average total pay of everyone else in your workplace will go up a little. There is no reason, however, to disallow others from doing more labor to earn a bit more in order to get something valuable that they want. 

 

Will people refuse remuneration often. We can only guess but in a participatory economy everyone will earn average, and then just a bit more or a bit less than average due to extra or less than average exertion,  duration, etc. The person offering the above complaint about not wanting more pay for longer hours is typically, in our current society, a person who is making way above average rates of payment and doesn’t feel right getting still more, for work they eagerly do. Were their income to become like everyone else’s income, and thus their wealth too, and were they to have a balanced job complex, as well, it is quite plausible that their and their family’s view of what they deserve for extra efforts would alter, though, again, it is no problem if it doesn’t. 

 

Concerns may still arise here due to thinking in terms of relations familiar now, or worries about mechanical application of the ideas in the future. For example, In capitalism today, there are many jobs for which it would indeed be considered demeaning for workers to punch clocks. Recently a college president in NJ demanded this of employees and they were rightly outraged. In part that's because for teachers much of their work is done outside the classroom. But even for scientists who work in labs, for example, we assume that some weeks will be lighter and some more intense and it would be demeaning to calculate minutes worked each day, as compared to an agreed work time for whole weeks, or months. Or imagine a poet. To measure her work time would be very difficult, if we meant the moments the poetry flows - but of course it is really all the moments the person is working to have it flow. And, in any event, the parecon answer to these type concerns, is simple: groups of workers can decide that for any particular type of work, much rougher measures of intensity and even duration would be used - by mutual agreement. It's always true that there's a trade-off between accurate measuring of potential goofing off for example, and the negative effects of surveillance, and that balancing out this trade off is something for groups of workers to decide - not owners or coordinators, keeping in mind that to be remunerated, no matter how long or intense, work must be accepted as part of the overall participatory plan.

 

The second confusion is more complex. If you can earn more for working longer, or for working harder, or for working at more onerous tasks - you have a reason to do all those things. As a result there will be a drift toward a longer work day, more intense labor, and toward worse working conditions. This is a perverse incentive implication, the critic says, of parecon. It leads to long work days, harsh work conditions, and speed up.

 

Parecon’s answer is that in an established participatory economy we all have balanced job complexes, comparable status and influence, and, let's say at time zero, equal incomes because we all work the same average work week. With our average income we get a share of the total social product that is worth that average. 

 

Now suppose all of us want more income than the current average. Is that possible? Yes, we would need to produce more stuff, which means we would need to work longer, or harder, or perhaps at some additional sufficiently productive tasks that were quite onerous. This result, if it were to occur, is not perverse. If we all want more, as a whole tendency/desire of the broad population, then we all want more. The allocation system lets us know the human and social and ecological effects, and if we still want more, despite having to work longer to generate it, so be it. 

 

Now, will we all want more? Well, I think we can safely predict, of course not. The fact is, and this is actually the one criticism of parecon leveled by mainstream economists, under parecon people are highly likely to want more leisure (just as people now do) rather than more stuff - and there is nothing in parecon, unlike capitalism’s drive to accumulate - preventing pareconers from having more leisure by working less in turn causing total output to drop. We can see this is highly likely even without taking into account what will be accurate considerations of ecological impact and even ignoring the impact of near equalization of shares of the product, and of revamping the product to not squander gigantic productive capacity on weapons and other anti social products, and of having sensible collective goods, and of having no pernicious status effects of consumption, and no narrowing of non consumption means to fulfillment. 

 

But what about a particular individual? Can I work longer, or harder, or perhaps even some times doing some very onerous tasks, to get more income? Yes, in parecon I can. Is there anything morally or economically wrong with that? No, it is warranted by my actions and has no ill effects on my behavior. For example, does it mean I will drive myself to dissolution in a mad pursuit of additional income? Of course not. Does it mean I can work as long or as hard or at whatever tasks I want without anyone else having any influence? No, because in a workplace, my choices have to coordinate with other people’s choices.

 

Many anarchists, to return to the original criticism, mainly don't see the need for remuneration norms and methods and so don't actually think about these issues very much. There is no need for them to do so, many anarchists think, because they favor simply avoiding the hassle of tracking values by saying that we should each work to our abilities and receive for our needs - and that's it.  

 

So what about the alternative that many anarchists prefer? Even if parecon’s remuneration isn’t horribly flawed, indeed even if it is sound and moral, is the preferred anarchist norm still better, or is it perhaps itself flawed?

 

The anarchist critic says we should all work to our ability and receive for our needs. But what does this mean? Well, there are a few possibilities, though they are rarely, if ever, discussed by advocates of the view. 

 

Suppose I am working in a system operating under the anarchist norm. How long will I work next week. If I work to my ability, odds are that even at 64 years old, which I am, I could manage to work 60 hours at a balanced job complex or even 70 or 80. Should I do that? Is that what working to my ability means? And should I work as hard as my ability permits as well?

It is incredibly unlikely that any anarchist or other advocate of this norm, much less those concerned about people overworking, has in mind the above literal meaning. But what else might the norm mean? 

 

It could mean I should work up to what someone else says is my ability. But again, surely no anarchist advocates that kind of authoritarian interpretation. 

 

Finally, it could mean instead that I should work the average amount - let’s just assume this exists from some past year’s results - and intensity for society, unless I feel able to work more or that I should work less. But then, on what basis do I arrive at such feelings? If the only issue is the effect on me, I will likely wind up working less than I would otherwise have done. If the only basis is the effect on others, then I need to have some way of sensibly gauging those effects. How do I do that? We will come back to that question in a moment.

 

Now what about the consumption side of things? I have to determine what I wish to have from the social product. According to the norm, taken literally, I should pay no attention to anyone else’s situation, and no attention to my level of work, and instead, just consult my needs. I ask myself - not someone else,  since that would convey absurd authority to that other person - what do I need? One interpretation of needs is what is physically needed for survival. So this would mean that in our good society everyone would be surviving on bread, water, and vitamin pills -- hardly an attractive prospect. Alternatively, at the other extreme, needs might be taken to mean whatever one wants. And that literally means, as best I can see, what do I want? And then I just take that. 

 

Well, I can’t believe any anarchist actually favors this. Even if we ignore the anarchist who, just minutes ago, thought that if we remunerated for duration, intensity, and onerousness of socially valued labor, the hunger for consumption goods would be so great that people would press on to longer and longer hours and higher and higher intensity. That person, being even a little consistent, surely would have to admit that told they can have whatever they ask for, a person so driven will want a lot more than is good for the overall society, and a lot more than everyone can have. 

 

All right, let's ignore the two extreme understandings of consumption according to need. Suppose the norm means, instead, that each consumer should consume the average, (again we can assume that from some past period, that average is known) and then somewhat more, or somewhat less, based on whether they have seriously pressing additional needs, or not. We restrain ourselves, presumably, out of a social impulse. Though I have to wonder why it is okay to assume everyone will do this, automatically, without distortion due to self serving bias, but lets say everyone will. How will I know how much is appropriate for me to take? 

 

This is the same problem the worker had. Whether the issue is a worker setting a level of work responsibly or a consumer setting a level of consumption responsibly, doing it requires knowing what is average, and then whether one legitimately deviates from that average, and how. 

 

Here is the thing. First, by assuming an average we are assuming that in the past people have functioned with this norm and arrived at something sensible. There is no reason to assume that unless we say how it happened. Second, the anarchist wants a person to engage in a social exchange that provides them information enabling them to settle on a responsible level of work and consumption. This is what it means to say that they will “settle.” The irony is that that is precisely what participatory planning was conceived to accomplish, and, in fact, does accomplish. It is a collective process of exchanging statements of desire about work and consumption, where one learns what is warranted and what isn’t, and settles on socially desirable and warranted choices. 

 

The only thing the anarchist wanting people to freely arrive at their own agreed levels of work and consumption could responsibly take issue with would be whether or not the information conveyed by participatory planning is the best that it can be, and whether arriving at the optimal choices with a norm and institutions geared to helping is worse than trying to do it, and failing, without a norm and institutions able to help. 

 

Think about a stoplight system - go on green, stop on red. You might imagine that it is authoritarian, because it constrains behavior. Alternatively, you might say, the goal is for people at intersections to get through without crashing, and with a relative minimum of disruption of steady flow of traffic. Now that is what the light system aims to accomplish. And if it does accomplish it, it would be truly weird to reject it as an imposition, preferring that everyone approaches each intersection doing whatever they choose with safety and flow depending on how well they coordinate without having any shared agreements or information to use in the process. 

 

The allocation situation is not too different. The problem with remuneration for need and work to ability is that it is either utopian on the consumption and draconian on the work side, it involves someone other than those involved determining need and ability, or - and this is the most likely intention of advocates since the other two interpretations are so completely devoid of anarchist aspirations - it implicitly assumes a mechanism which conveys to each worker and consumer personal and system-wide information that allows him or her to make responsible choices without imposing class divisions, violating the ecology, enriching the few, or unnecessarily hurting him or herself. And what does that, and was conceived to do that, very explicitly, is participatory planning, including the equity norm for remuneration.

 

There are other problems with the need/ability norm, but it is overkill to persist, I think. Suffice it to say that to sensibly know how to invest for the future, to know what we should prepare to produce more of or cut back to produce less of, one has to know the relative desires for things. But you can’t know that if the only information conveyed by the system is that people want things, but not how much. 

 

What about this critic’s last point, that parecon isn’t an economy based on and creating mutual aid? Well, parecon doesn’t assume wonderful people. On the contrary, it has institutions which would accept rather selfish and self centered people - the people who we are now by our training - and lead them to becoming more empathetic practitioners of mutual aid.

 

Here is the idea. In a participatory economy for me to get ahead - let’s say I am a very selfish fellow - I can either enjoy less difficult burdens at my work, or I can enjoy a greater share of the social product in my consumption.

 

How do I do this? Well, on the work side, I have a balanced job complex. The only way the quality of my work day is going to improve is if the quality of the socially average work day improves, or if I find a socially average job I like better than the one I already have. The second route to a better work experience is straightforward. I seek a job, I get it or not, there is nothing special involved and nothing anti social or particularly solidaritous, either. But the first route is interesting. 

 

For my average job complex to improve entails that the socially average job complex improves - which is to say that everyone’s complex improves.  How does that happen? Well, it happens most dramatically when changes in the ways we work, or in the tools we use, or in the social arrangements at work, make the worst tasks less bad, improving the average across all tasks. That is, the average typically goes up most when the worst jobs are dramatically improved. So my personal and even selfish desire to have a better time during my work days leads me, inexorably, to want the same types of labor saving and workplace improving changes in the most onerous workplaces, as everyone else wants in them. I don’t benefit most by advocating simply for modest changes in my own workplace. Rather, I benefit most by advocating for major changes where they will have the largest impact. This is precisely an economic system generating solidarity by the responsibilities and options it gives people. Mutual aid becomes the natural way to get along, not something special that one must attain against one’s surroundings.

 

What about the consumption side? Well, my fulfillment from consumption depends largely on my private consumption choices, and there is nothing special in that, other than that when I consume individually in a participatory economy, I do so knowing that my acts cause production to occur and thereby affect society’s average job complex and work duration, and especially the workers producing what I consume, and thus my own work situation and everyone else’s. Again, there are two ways I can get more. I can raise my income by working harder, longer, or at more onerous tasks, if my workmates agree on an arrangement of activities. That route teaches solidarity only minimally because I know, via the planning process, the human implications of my choices. But I can also get more if the total social pie enlarges and, indeed, that is a more likely route to more income for me and for everyone in society. And this route is one of solidarity and mutual aid. We all benefit together rather than competing for benefits. 

 

Of course, looking more closely, the key is that there is no way to improve one’s consumption or one’s work life at the expense of others. There are no opposed classes, nor even opposed individuals, at least in any damaging structural sense. This is not market allocation where you buy cheap and sell dear, and I do the opposite, and nice guys finish last. And it is not central planning where, rhetoric aside, we do what others decide we must do. It is, instead, participatory economics, where we all cooperatively negotiate to enjoy gains and endure losses together, even as we also seek work and consumption best suited to our personal fulfillment. Parecon turns out to produce solidarity and to make typical kinds of anti sociality literally irrational - two desirable traits for a desirable economy.

 

 

 

Criticism: Parecon retains money and prices. But money and prices carry with them the ills of competitive allocation and preserve the ecological and interpersonal failings of familiar economies, whatever other gains may be attained. Parecon retains the war of all against all. Parecon trumpets solidarity but preserves a rat race.

 

This continues the concern above now made more general, but also continues the same confusions. 

 

What are prices about? They are a representation of the relative valuations of items in the economy and, depending on the allocation system that generates them, they will be more of less accurate in taking into account with a sensible weight for each person, all people’s actual preferences and assessments, or all social and ecological effects. 

 

In a centrally planned socialist (or more accurately,  coordinatorist) economy, prices manifest the will and desires of the planners. At a caricatured extreme, imagine one person putting a price tag on everything. The allocation system has in that case set relative values, but surely they will not accurately account for all people’s views, much less render appropriate weight to each. This is not capitalistic at all, but nonetheless it is horrendous.

 

Now consider a market socialist (more accurately called market coordinatorist) economy. The market is in many respects like that under capitalism. Buyers and sellers try to fleece one another. Those outside each transaction barely influence its outcome, and, as a result, prices, set competitively, do not address all implications of exchange, nor due they accord proper weight which, with markets, is determined mainly by bargaining power. A difference is that without owners there is no capital labor relation and much about the exact logic of workplace dynamics and profit seeking - now surplus seeking - alters.

 

Now consider parecon. There are prices - meaning assessments of the relative valuations of items. Parecon’s prices emerge, however, from a cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs by workers and consumers who are all accorded the same weight of influence, varying only as they are affected. There is no profit seeking, nor even surplus seeking. The situation is fundamentally changed. To say it is the same, or nearly the same, because there are prices in capitalism and prices in parecon is no more sensible than to say these two systems are the same because there are weights in each. Actually less so, since weights really are the same in each, whereas prices are fundamentally different.

 

For money the situation is similar. In both systems money - or a placeholder for claims on social product, facilitates keeping track of accounts. But in capitalism money is also amassed as capital, or profits, while in parecon it really is just a placeholder. In capitalism like prices, money too has a logic - but in parecon, like for prices, the logic is completely different.  

 

Money and prices do not bring the ills of competition when one has an economy that operates cooperatively and collectively, without competitive markets. Nor do they bring disdain for and violation of the ecology when one has an economy that systematically includes attention to environmental impact and has no drive to violate the environment. 

 

But is parecon a rat race economy, as the critic suggests. Well, in parecon, while there may be human rats by some pathological process, it will not be due to the dictates of economic life which produce, instead, sociality. And, more, those human rats, functioning within the economy, will have no avenues for advancing themselves materially or socially by being rat like. Quite the contrary, doing well in the economy will require them to relate supportively to others. 

 

Of course the full case for participatory planning requires a full examination of parecon’s allocation system in context of its other institutions. But what should clear here is that the types of concerns many anarchists raise are not some kind of flaw parecon advocates either welcomed or overlooked. Rather, transcending such flaws in current systems was the point of participatory economics. Worry about such matters was why parecon was created, and guided its logic and choices. 

 

Looking at capitalism and seeing prices, money, and budgets and thinking, well, to have a good economy we must not have any of that, is no more sensible than looking at capitalism and seeing that the economy has buildings, or workplaces, or large scale, or small scale, production, and saying, hey capitalism has it, we must avoid it. 

 

The tenable position is, instead, that capitalism has class rule. We must avoid that. Capitalism has allocation that is blind to broad ecological effects and an internal dynamic that accumulates environmental decay. We must avoid that. Capitalism has wage slavery, is exploitative, is alienated. We must avoid that. Capitalism produces anti social individualism. We must avoid that. But not, capitalism produces stuff, consumes stuff, notices relative values, we must avoid that.  

 

 

 

Criticism: Parecon is productivist and whatever parecon's other merits may be, parecon would do little or nothing to slow the slip slide of society toward ecological disaster. Parecon is like the Titanic. It might provide some nice food and entertainment for a time, but it would sink.

 

How does an economy affect the environment? Other than minor ways, the major aspect is that the economy uses up resources and spews out byproducts that alter environmental relations. Thus, it can squander assets, despoil nature with harsh or even catastrophic results.

 

Is it the mere fact that an economy produces stuff that is at fault? Yes, in one limited sense, it is. All production uses stuff, and all production has at least some side effects that are undesirable. But here we have another case of the baby and the bathwater. Throwing away production, as compared to doing it sensibly, foregoes a whole lot of what we mean by progress and civilization, needlessly. 

 

What is instead necessary is to undertake production with the purpose of benefiting all people - not profiting only a few - and, even more, with attention to all the social and also ecological effects, so that the choice to produce or not produce is taken in light of full understanding of the implications. 

 

If an economy can do that, then of course sane people will opt against production which threatens their existence, or even, short of that, production which harms the ecological context we live in. This requires an economy which cosiders the long term and not only the short term implications of choices. It must be able to tally the true social and ecological costs and benefits of options. It must deliver decision making in a manner that doesn’t give any constituency a way to escape the costs of, or to overly benefit from, unwise production. 

 

To say an economy is productivist can have some real meaning. Capitalism, for example, does have a built in drive to accumulate regardless of benefits to the population. It also has a built in means for some constituencies to pawn off environmental pains on others, while accruing most production benefits for themselves. In fact, corporations are driven to this behavior. And capitalism has allocation that conveys a ridiculously short time line of assessment, and that also misvalues inputs and outputs, especially concerning their ecological implications. In short, capitalism is, by its structure, anti ecological - a far more telling and accurate descriptor than “productivist.”

 

In contrast, parecon, with participatory planning, is virtually the opposite. It generates accurate and full valuations. It conveys appropriate influence. It has the right timeline. And, as mainstream economists like to point out - though they think it is a flaw - parecon has no built in drive to accumulate. It is, in that sense, anti-productivist, though certainly not anti production, much less anti civilization or anti progress. 

 

 

Criticism: Parecon uses capitalistic language that talks about sacrifice and other activity that sounds very old left or bourgeois. Parecon gives me the willies. I think there is baggage hidden in it that will trump good results.

 

I hear this often. I even understand it. But I think it takes a reasonable approach to having suspicions way beyond what is warranted. First, while sometimes, as shorthand, parecon does say remuneration is for “effort and sacrifice,” it always makes perfectly clear that this means remuneration is for how long you work, how hard you work, and how onerous the conditions under which you work are, as long as you are doing socially valued labor. I would be surprised to hear a worker say, it gives her the willies that she would get income for how long she works, how hard she works, and the onerousness of her work at socially valuable tasks.

 

Other than the word "sacrifice" which is, I agree, perhaps a poor choice, I am not sure what words this type of critic may have in mind. Class? Work? Workplace? I think inputs and outputs bother some folks, though I am really not sure why given that we always emphasize that this means everything that goes into and comes out from work - including changed people, social relations, products, etc. 

 

But let's return to the problem with the word “sacrifice.” What that word is getting at is that remuneration is morally warranted and also economically sound when it offsets burdens associated with work. The bad effect the word can have isn't just a linguistic overtone, but that people get the wrong impression that remuneration for onerousness means you get more income if you dislike your work more, and less if you dislike it less. People then rightly wonder, how can we possibly measure that, and does it mean I should look for work I don’t like?

 

Well, no, that would indeed be a bit perverse. Instead, as noted earlier, a task being onerous and worthy of extra pay is a social determination. Once it is decided that some unusual task, perhaps not even in anybody’s balanced job complex - say, cleaning up after a disaster - is onerous, then whoever does the task gets paid accordingly. I should in fact want to do tasks which would be paid more than average, but which I happen to like despite society finding them onerous. 

 

There is no baggage hidden in parecon’s norms, language, or commitments. 

  

Does parecon allow each their own need?

By Kenny, John at Aug 08, 2011 03:15 AM

Do you anticipate it being relatively easy to work more hours at your work place in order to increase your consumption? It's hard to guess, but the problem I see is the scenario when you workplace doesn't have a group of people who, as a total, want to consume averagely. For example, what if your workplace is full of people who want to consume above average, or if, in total, they even consume just slightly more than average when taken all together? If that's the case then not everyone will be able to consume at the level at which they desire, because you will not be able to find enough people wanting to consume enough below average to trade work with you to offset your desires to consume above average. The same goes for the opposite. How does parcon overcome this?  Would people have to move or change jobs just to consume what they want? It seems like a  logistical mess to get the correct people together.

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Stop lights, etc.

By St. John, Patrick at Jul 08, 2011 16:35 PM

1. Funny thing about the stoplight analogy. Actually, quite a few cities and regions in Europe have rid themselves of stop lights, and things have been going quite well:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/11/traffic_lights.php

"The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior."

2. On a more substantive question:

"a cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs by workers and consumers who are all accorded the same weight of influence, varying only as they are affected"

How would that varying happen? Could you provide/point me to an example?

3. The biggest problem I have with remuneration based on effort/sacrifice is that it takes as given a few key conservative ideas about human nature and specifically, the nature of fairness and work motivation. What would happen if remuneration was largely uniform, regardless of effort and sacrifice? Most behavioral economists and acolytes of BF Skinner would say that nobody would do beyond the minimum, because they'd have no incentive.

However, as an ever-increasing body of research shows, extrinsic motivation (money, prizes, gold stars, etc.) just doesn't work, especially for cognitively challenging work. There was actually a good recent RSA Animate video about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

http://positivesharing.com/2006/12/why-motivation-by-pizza-doesnt-work/

Extrinsic rewards actually demotivate people. We should provide everyone with the resources they need to live a comfortable life, and if they go above and beyond in work or in any other aspect of their lives, we should recognize and laud their accomplishments. I'm far from convinced that there needs to be any re-allocation of resources to them as a result.

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Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Jul 08, 2011 18:09 PM

Hi,

> 1.
 Funny thing about the stoplight analogy. Actually, quite a few cities and regions in Europe have rid themselves of stop lights, and things have been going quite well:

In the u.s., too, most corners have stop signs or nothing - but the ones that need lights, without lights, would be a horror show... ditto the ones that need stop signs. I assume you are just being cute...

> "The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior."

The quote has some meaning - but not where the rules are chosen precisely to make social responsibility possible and doable...

Take the rule that works starts at 9 AM. Or any of a thousand others - groups of people cannot function together if everyone simply does what they please, without coordination. Nor can they be remotely efficient if one has to decide all mutual agreements over every day...

> 2. On a more substantive question: "a cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs by workers and consumers who are all accorded the same weight of influence, varying only as they are affected" How would that varying happen? Could you provide/point me to an example?

This requires a description of the whole allocation system. But it is important to remember that we are talking about things like how many bicycles to produce, or whether I get one, and so on. The allocation process involves social planning, my getting a bike or not is overwhelmingly a function of my deciding it is worth the price to me, or not - but that decision is also affected by everyone else's choices, which help, albeit for each person only a very little bit, determine the price. Bicycle workers affect it much more than those who work in other industries, but again not exclusively. The only reason anyone has to push harder during negotiations impacting prices more, eventually, is the extent they are affected. This is true for all items, and allocation is a systemic decision process - so when you arrive at all the inputs and outputs, it turns out you have very greatly influenced what you get, less so what your family or community gets, and less so what others get...and similar for what you produce, what others in your workplace produce, what others in society produce...

3. The biggest problem I have with remuneration based on effort/sacrifice is that it takes as given a few key conservative ideas about human nature and specifically, the nature of fairness and work motivation. What would happen if remuneration was largely uniform, regardless of effort and sacrifice? Most behavioral economists and acolytes of BF Skinner would say that nobody would do beyond the minimum, because they'd have no incentive.

I have no idea what conservative ideas about human nature you think it accepts.

I suspect, correct me if I am wrong, that this may be an example of feeling that the opposite of my enemy will be correct - but that is not true. Just because nasty folks have nasty reasons for something - doesn't mean there might not be good reasons even for that thing, even, much less for something very different that just looks a little similar. 

What remuneration for effort/sacrifice does is to say we are all equally entitled to enjoy our lives - and so some should not get more, or less, than others, for the same effort sacrifice, and should get a return for more effort/sacrifice, to offset the debit that that represents.

Do you really want to say that for working five hours five days a week, you should get the same income I get for working eight hours a day, five days a week, in the same industry, at the same pace? 

> However, as an ever-increasing body of research shows, extrinsic motivation (money, prizes, gold stars, etc.) just doesn't work, especially for cognitively challenging work. There was actually a good recent RSA Animate video about it:

This type study just has nothing to do with parecon...
It is about motivation in a crappy system, with crappy conditions, etc. etc. And it is not about fairness or justice, either...

Extrinsic rewards actually demotivate people.

You think so? That would mean if we were to raise the wages of cab drivers to 10,000 a month, for six hour works days, there would not be a massive line outside every cab company in the country, for jobs. But there would be, of course.

> We should provide everyone with the resources they need to live a comfortable life, and if they go above and beyond in work or in any other aspect of their lives, we should recognize and laud their accomplishments. I'm far from convinced that there needs to be any re-allocation of resources to them as a result.

What you say about praise is what parecon says regarding OUTPUT, but not effort sacrifice. And regarding output, the social praise and feeling of achievement, etc., are, indeed, fine incentives. But regarding effort sacrifice, there is a matter of both incentive and justice...

At any rate, if you want to say you don't agree with the points made in the piece, of course that is fine. But it would help if you would say why... look again at what is said.

In brief, what you are saying is somehow we figure out the size of the society's output... But how, given that it depends closely on how much the population works? Then, that done, we give each person an equal share of that output. But how, given that we don't know how to value all the items. Then we say to everyone, okay, now please work sufficiently so that the societal output will be what we have just supplied. But how does anyone know how much that is?

Okay - even if there were answers to the above questions - and there are not, as far as I know - you have just told everyone that they are NOT allowed to work less and take less.  But why not? Why can't I? I want more leisure. That is not unjust - but telling me that I cannot opt for it, that is draconian.

You have also told everyone they cannot work more and take more? But again, why not, I want some extra stuff. To tell me I don't have that option is again draconian...

Finally, you have left no way for anyone to know what is the right amount to work to be responsible, nor to consume. You have left no way for producers to know the appropriate amounts to produce. I could go on, but it only repeats points in the essay...

You are leaning in that direction because there is something about remunerating justly that you don't like - but I don't know what that is, either. 

Apologies if I am missing your point.

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Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By St. John, Patrick at Jul 08, 2011 19:28 PM

If you read those articles I linked to, you'l see that virtually all traffic signs have been removed - stop lights, stop signs, etc. And these aren't dusty hamlets in Kansas -- they're busy towns and cities in the heart of Europe.

Someone claiming an intersection "needs" a stop sign or stop light, in most cases tells you more about the layout of the intersection (and the person making the claim) than the abilities of the people travelling through it. Now that I think about it, that's a pretty nice metaphor for the larger skepticism of improvisation that many pareconistas I've spoken with seem to exhibit.

> "That would mean if we were to raise the wages of cab drivers to 10,000 a month, for six hour works days, there would not be a massive line outside every cab company in the country, for jobs. But there would be, of course."

Wait, you criticize the use of examples of "motivation in a crappy system" but then turn around and use one yourself? Quoi?

> "What remuneration for effort/sacrifice does is to say we are all equally entitled to enjoy our lives - and so some should not get more, or less, than others, for the same effort sacrifice, and should get a return for more effort/sacrifice, to offset the debit that that represents."

What remuneration for effort/sacrifice does is say that we rise and fall on our own, and that we must always keep close tabs on the effort/sacrifice of others because individuals can better themselves by foul means. For example, if I figure out a way to perform a task with much less effort or sacrifice than my coworkers, my parecon incentive is to keep it to myself, to keep either the money or leisure time I wouldn't have if I had told everyone. That kind of suspicion kills solidarity.

> "Do you really want to say that for working five hours five days a week, you should get the same income I get for working eight hours a day, five days a week, in the same industry, at the same pace?"

Absolutely. And if the nature of work is still so odious that pay differential is required, then I'd say we're a far ways away from a just economy.

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Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Jul 08, 2011 20:50 PM

> If you read those articles I linked to, you'l see that virtually all traffic signs have been removed - stop lights, stop signs, etc. And these aren't dusty hamlets in Kansas -- they're busy towns and cities in the heart of Europe.

Okay, it is an example. If you are telling me you think what you indicate is somehow evidence that we don't need agreed rules and arrangements - role structures, and thus institutions, okay, say so.  But honestly, I doubt you are saying that - so what are you saying? 

Is it that you think the example was bad because some sites claim in Europe say you don't need lights? Okay, who cares, honestly...it was just an analogy - I still think it easily applies, you don't, doesn't really matter, does it?

> Someone claiming an intersection "needs" a stop sign or stop light, in most cases tells you more about the layout of the intersection (and the person making the claim) than the abilities of the people travelling through it. Now that I think about it, that's a pretty nice metaphor for the larger skepticism of improvisation that many pareconistas I've spoken with seem to exhibit.

I don't know what to say to you because I am not sure what you are saying...

We are talking about the economy and thus about whether we need workplaces that have agreed ways of operating...among other things we need. If you think that each day everyone can improvise, say so. If not, let's not waste time because in that case we agree that having institutions in which agreements about roles and responsibilities are agreed and abided makes sense. The only question then becomes, okay, what institutions are consistent with our values?

BUT, additionally, you might also just for interest, because I really don't get it, even if we agree that it is impossible for everyone to always just improvise, say why you think that doing so is better, in any case? Why is human beings, with their cognitive and communicative capacities, agreeing on various arrangements and responsibilities in advance, and structuring their activities around the understandings they arrive at, a bad idea, a bad thing?

This is what it means to be social beings - we talk, we listen, we arrive at shared agreements, etc. 

Do you really feel that free association means we do it again, from scratch, over and over daily, hourly? And do you think it means that I only do what I agree to or want to do, never subject to agreements I don't find perfectly to my liking? I can't imagine you think either of those things, so I wonder what we are talking about. 

>> "That would mean if we were to raise the wages of cab drivers to 10,000 a month, for six hour works days, there would not be a massive line outside every cab company in the country, for jobs. But there would be, of course."

> Wait, you criticize the use of examples of "motivation in a crappy system" but then turn around and use one yourself? Quoi?

You said external motivation has negative effect on outlay of work. It doesn't have that now. Nor would it have it in any system other than were people highly responsible and ethical and refusing extra income they felt they did not deserve - but even that would not in a system where the extra payment is just and fair, given to even out overall benefit from society.

> "What remuneration for effort/sacrifice does is to say we are all equally entitled to enjoy our lives - and so some should not get more, or less, than others, for the same effort sacrifice, and should get a return for more effort/sacrifice, to offset the debit that that represents."

What remuneration for effort/sacrifice does is say that we rise and fall on our own, and that we must always keep close tabs on the effort/sacrifice of others because individuals can better themselves by foul means.

No, honestly, it really really doesn't. Assume social people. Assume social agreements. We get ahead collectively. We can make trade offs, however, individually. I can get a shirt instead of pants, myself. If I like one better, I get that. If the other, I get that. But to get MORE period, everyone gets more.

Also, I can trade off leisure for income - same idea, same logic, same reason - nothing about bad people.

We don't have to all spy on each other at all. In fact, how each workplace decides to assess duration of work, or intensity, is up to the workplace. 

Will it still work if some people would like to cheat? Yes. But one isn't assuming cheats - one is trying to attain equity and appropriate flow of information.

> For example, if I figure out a way to perform a task with much less effort or sacrifice than my coworkers, my parecon incentive is to keep it to myself, to keep either the money or leisure time I wouldn't have if I had told everyone. That kind of suspicion kills solidarity.\\

Look a little closer. We work together doing X. You figure a way to do X that allows you to do what was a full day's work in a half day. You do it. Now what? Well, I suppose you could work cleverly half the day, and then for the other half make believe you are working well enough so the rest of us can't tell you aren't. Haven't gained much, that way.... You could go home - but then you would get half pay, and we would all quickly be using the new technique, to the advantage of all of society, and with no undo income. In other words, my workmates can see how long I work, and judge whether I am screwing around, or working for the duration that I work. This can be done lots of ways... looking at output is obvious. That isn't remunerating output, it is using output as an indicator. Just looking at activity is obvious. And so on. Will there be some situations where someone could risk their friendships and job by cheating, and maybe get away with it? Sure. Not too ilkely, but yes. Will different work pleases be more or less concerned about that? Yes. And will the efforts applied to preventing it drop over time, as people become more and more attuned to a kind of life? Sure. 

But here is the thing, you are saying you think despite how hard it is to get away with anything like what you describe  - and the cost of being labelled a cheat - you can read longer descriptions to see how hard - still, lots of people would be inclined to do it, and to suspect other people of doing it. It seems to me you are assuming ill motivation abounds. I don't think so, though I would agree one should build a system allowing that it might.

Okay, remunerate for need and there is no impediment at all to getting away with getting too much or working too little - because one isn't even getting away with anything. One can just do it. So why wouldn't the same people told it is fine to work less and take more, and given no way, even, to know what a responsible amount of work is, or a responsible level of consumption, miss by quite a lot?

>> "Do you really want to say that for working five hours five days a week, you should get the same income I get for working eight hours a day, five days a week, in the same industry, at the same pace?"

> Absolutely. And if the nature of work is still so odious that pay differential is required, then I'd say we're a far ways away from a just economy.

It doesn't even require odious work. Though by all means, if you think my working at a worse job situation than you doesn't entitle me to more, than that would be another point of disagreement. I feel like I must not be communicating well. I want more stuff. Surely you don't think that is a bad thing. So I want to be responsible and work more to get it. You say I can't. I can work more, But not get more as a result. Why? Why aren't I allowed?

I want to work less and have more free time. But I want the same income as everyone. Apparently you are saying I can do that. Okay, I will, and so will a great many other people. Why not? Only reason would be a feeling it was wrong, irresponsible. But society says it isn't. Society - you - say it is fine. Supply will not match demand.

More, there are no relative valuations - with all the problems noted in the essay and the prior comment.

Here is the thing. With all due respect - you are repeating your preferences, but you are not offering anything like a serious reply to the points raised, nor making a supportive argument for what you are favoring, either. Or else I am missing it all.

For example, I still have not heard how the remunerative norm you seem to want would yield relative valuations, would allow me to know how much I should work to be responsible, would guide investments or even amounts to be produced of each item, and would let me consume more by working more, or consume less by working less, or even know what is fair consumption. These are not small problems. They are like saying a hospital with medicine or operations would be more pleasant - ignoring the minor byproducts of eliminating medicine and operations. Except for one thing. A person saying that could point to the downside of medicine and operations - I haven't heard what the downside is of equitable remuneration.

Put conversely, I don't have any idea what you think are the great virtues that are outweighing the debits, causing you to like the remunerative norm ability/need. I don't know what you don't like about equitable remuneration. Is it immoral, in your view? Or is there some other problem.

I  believe I raised these questions earlier, too...

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By St. John, Patrick at Jul 12, 2011 18:47 PM

The stoplight analogy took on a bit of a life of its own, as I found it really useful. There's a pretty important difference between 1) participatorily planning where stop lights are placed, how long they stay red for, etc., and 2) letting whoever happens to be at the intersection negotiate if they stop or drive on through. One could certainly argue that both systems qualify as "democratic", though such a classification misses a helluva lot.

I think we're talking past each other because we're at odds on more foundational points than workplace remuneration, which I should have laid out at the start.

1. I'm far from persuaded that we need money for most transactions (aside from trade with outside capitalist regions, and perhaps internal bookkeeping within industries).

2. The notion of "greater work = getting more stuff" is not at all a self-evidently moral idea, at least outside the logic of capitalism. I'd definitely need to see some solid argument and evidence before signing onto it, especially since the anthropological record is rife with functioning societies in which that was either never or rarely the case.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Jul 12, 2011 19:07 PM

>1. I'm far from persuaded that we need money for most transactions (aside from trade with outside capitalist regions, and perhaps internal bookkeeping within industries).

My guess is that by "money" you mean something that one accumulates, that earns on its own, etc.  You are correct, we do not need that.

What money as a universal equivalent for exchange putposes is for is precisely "book-kepping" - meaning being able to arrive at and know the relative values of things that are produced and consumed, as well as being able to have that which one ought to receive.

> 2. The notion of "greater work = getting more stuff" is not at all a self-evidently moral idea, at least outside the logic of capitalism.

Really? Suppose you and I and fifty other folks are shipwrecked. I say to you all, hey, I am the most famous, or I am the shortest, or I am the funniest, or I am just plain me - and I want a nice big house, in the best location, and food, and my kids in school, etc. etc., but I like swimming a lot, and I want to swim all day and do no work.

You might well say, hold on their Michael. I am not willing to bust my ass producing a house and food and classes for you and yours, while you spend all day swimming. You need to carry your share. 

And I say, oh, well, but you said I could work to me ability and consume to my need. Apparently you didn't mean that. Okay, no problem, you want me to be fair about it. Okay, but how do I know what is fair?

If you would reject my not working much, or at all, then we probably agree. Because now the next step is, what constitutes carrying my share - and that depends. I may decide I like to swim so much I am happy working less to swim more and take less outputs. Or I may want more outputs, and be willing to work more for it.

Anyone who thinks this is capitalistic is not clear on how capitalism works. Remuneration has precisely ZERO to do with duration, intensity, and onerousness,other than as they convey power -  but is, instead, for output, to a small degree, and overwhelmingly for power.



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Aug 07, 2011 13:38 PM

> 1. I'm far from persuaded that we need money for most transactions (aside from trade with outside capitalist regions, and perhaps internal bookkeeping within industries).

This is likely because you (a) are thinking of money as capital - and (b) with all respect, are not thinking on all sides of it. Dylan said, "money doesn't talk it swears." a favorite quote of mine...and so you can see my views of what is wrong about money, in our world, are likely very similar to your own.

But there is more to it. Forget the word money. And even more so, forget our world.

Do some things have more value for individuals, and for society, than other things, not only now, but also in a better future? Do some have more debits, some more benefits? The answer is of course, yes. If we disagree on that, then we can stop, simply agreeing to disagree. 

But next, do we care? That is, does it matter enough that we need to be aware of such differences? Again, I think the answer is of course, yes - we need to be aware because if we aren't we cannot make sensible choices - in this case as either producers or consumers.

What is it better to allot our labor to, to use resources for, and so on? If we agree about this, then we agree that an economy needs to assess the relative costs and benefits of different possible choices, so that people can then decide their preferences in light of that information and their own needs, etc. and act on them, hopefully in a self managing way. 

Once we agree on that, if we do, we come to the underlying problem - how does the economy do this? How does it elicit an assessment of full and true social and environmental costs and benefits in a manner people can utilize for decisions taken in a self managing way - without being biased, coerced, etc. 

If we agree on that, being a key question, I answer participatory planning. If you have some other way to do it, okay - I should like to hear it. If it is better, meaning more in tune with human fulfillment and development, individually and collectively, I would become an advocate. 

What is left of "money," is its accounting and communicative functions. What is left of budgets is the allocative functions. And so on.

2. The notion of "greater work = getting more stuff" is not at all a self-evidently moral idea, at least outside the logic of capitalism. I'd definitely need to see some solid argument and evidence before signing onto it, especially since the anthropological record is rife with functioning societies in which that was either never or rarely the case.

Well, if you would like to see further discussion, from a pareconist point of view - no problem. Take a look at the book parecon - either the actual print book, or you can see it online on the site, as one option. There are many others.

That is the best and most serious way to proceed, at least if you want to understand and assess parecon. But as a shortcut, if you don't want to do that, then you might think about this. I really hesitate to do this, because some will take it literally, say it is technocratic, etc. etc. 

But, as a thinking aid, and nothing more than that, suppose we look people in society. We look at the sum total of each of their responsibilities and activities in the economy - their work - and we look at their consumption. What should be equilibrated, broadly, among people? One moral choice is to say we are all equally deserving souls, so on balance, the sum total benefits and costs associated with our level of work and consumption, as gauged by society, of the combination of our work and our consumption should be equal, or broadly so with that of others. Call that average benefit level, for the sake of thinking about it, Z of fulfillment. 

Now suppose I have X from production and Y from consumption - again, where X plus Y equals Z. Suppose also that the average for society doesn't change, but my work changes so now I hve work rated at X - 20, so to speak. Should I keep getting Y rated consumption, or should I get Y plus 20? 

The only variant I can see that is arguably more moral than this - at least to my values - is to equate not the socially assessed costs and benefits associated with the work and consumption levels, but the acutal level of fulfillment of each person - but that has its own moral problems and is, in any event, completely impossible as a guide, though it is something we try to effectuate personally, often... by making depressed people feel better, etc. 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Kenny, John at Aug 07, 2011 01:06 AM

I think I see where Patrick is going. Whatever the case, I'm going to try and offer an alternative for the sake of argument:

The differences that I'm going for is that 1. everyone will work the same level of onerouness, etc. and 2. they will be able to consume as much as they want/need. So the benefit is that consumption is a freer system, but the restriction is that  everyone must work the same onerousness, etc. The freedom of consumption also has risks which could be considered unequal or disrupt supply and demand.

So, basically production is done the same as it is in parecon, the workplaces know how much they need to produce from last year and they work together, democratically and equitabley to divy up those task. The thing is they don't get paid. Their  productivity isn't directly tied to their consumption.

On the consumption side, people see charts of how much products were projected for this year (from last year's numbers with possible adjustments for population growth or polling) and charts of whether items are being consumed too fast or too slow so as to reach the projected totals and the general scarcity of items. Then the consumer judges what they can take. Production adjusts  as necessary, just as how it would have to in parecon (since allow the global bookeeping in parecon is kept in balance, each industry isn't, for example, Jane the shoemaker may work extra hours to purchase extra socks, but that doesn't help with the added demand of those socks at the sock workplace, Jane just produces uncessary amounts of shoes  - which of course could be stockpiled and used for adjustments in time).

It seems like an alternative, possibly one that is more comfortable for Patrick. Do I need to elbarote more, or do you get what I'm describing?

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Aug 07, 2011 13:50 PM

> The differences that I'm going for is that  1. everyone will work the same level of onerouness, etc.

This means, at least as written, that you are legislating a total duration, intensity, and onerousness of work and I can't, for example, opt for less, or for more, nor can you. There is nothing self managing about that unless there is some law of nature that precludes our having more control over our own choice and there isn't. There is also a problem of deciding what level this universally shared package is set at...

> and 2. they will be able to consume as muchas they want/need.

This means, let's say I work a forty hour week - or whatever else it is set at. This yields, since we all do it, a total social product. Let's say there are 1000 of us, to make the numbers easy. Now, an average share is one one thousandth of the total values. Saying I can consume anything I want/need says I can just go in and take what I choose. Why do I not take 2 one thousandths, or twenty? How do I even know I am taking more than others? And, why should I care since the system tells me this is what I am supposed to do, and it will work fine?

> So the benefit is that consumption is a freer system, but the restriction is that  everyone must work the same onerousness, etc. The freedom of consumption also has risks which could be considered unequal or disrupt supply and demand.

The problem is, please don't take this wrong - you are not actually thinking about the situation. You have a goal and you are tinkering to try and have it, without asking seriously the implications. And I suspect without looking closes at the parecon discussion... and honestly, this does seem to recur over and over in discussions of this topic. 

> So, basically production is done the same as it is in parecon, the workplaces know how much they need to produce from last year and they work together, democratically and equitabley to divy up those task. The thing is they don't get paid. Their  productivity isn't directly tied to their consumption.

There is no last year matching outout to real needs to look at. If workplaces produce, let's say, like last year - perhaps last year we had actual parecon, and then we decided to try this, then they might produce, let's say, a million bicycles. But what if everyone decides they want a new bicycle - ten million, or thirty million. There is no reason not to decide this - there is zero cost to me to have one. 

> On the consumption side, people see charts of how much products were projected for this year (from last year's numbers with possible adjustments for population growth or polling) and charts of whether items are being consumed too fast or too slow so as to reach the projected totals and the general scarcity of items. Then the consumer judges what they can take.

Meaning, the consumer uses information to asses what is a responsible choice - and cannot, in any case, make an irresponsible one - that is what parecon achieves. The real parecon...

> Do I need to elbarote more, or do you get what I'm describing?

I get it, I think. I understand your desire. It makes no sense, honestly. Ultimately you are trying to end run people's vicersal rejection of valuations and budgets because of the associations those have in their past - very understandable. But then you slowly slide valuations and budgets back in...except in a fashion that would not work, and with some very odd constraints that are actually far more damagining to free choice than anything that even remotely arises from the acutal use of valuations and budgets in parecon...

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Kenny, John at Aug 07, 2011 16:17 PM

>This means, at least as written, that you are legislating a total duration, intensity, and onerousness of work and I can't, for example, opt for less, or for more, nor can you. There is nothing self managing about that unless there is some law of nature that precludes our having more control over our own choice and there isn't. There is also a problem of deciding what level this universally shared package is set at...

Thanks for pointing this out. What I should have said is that everyone, sort of as a starting position, starts with equal levels of duration, intensity and onerousness. That's the level of what's needed to be done split equally. From that starting point, people can work more if they like, which would allow people to work less. Or people could work less if others were willing to work more. For example, even, people could offer consuming less and working less to one of their workmates who if they took it would feel more right consuming more and would work more too. Just to be clear: this is a modification of what I wrote earlier, due to your correct criticism (though this is what I had in mind; but that's not important). 

>This means, let's say I work a forty hour week - or whatever else it is set at. This yields, since we all do it, a total social product. Let's say there are 1000 of us, to make the numbers easy. Now, an average share is one one thousandth of the total values. Saying I can consume anything I want/need says I can just go in and take what I choose. Why do I not take 2 one thousandths, or twenty? How do I even know I am taking more than others? And, why should I care since the system tells me this is what I am supposed to do, and it will work fine?

It will be made known how much is an average share, through charts or diagrams or other posintgs. This informs the consumer's decision of how much to eat. Perhaps, if there is someone with a large appetitie, to secure the system and  feel good about their decision, the consumer enters into a pact with another consumer who consumes less. Adjustments will have to be made of course, but they will be of similar nature to those that must be made in parecon, because parecon only guaratnees that the total debits and credits match, not individual industries/products.

>The problem is, please don't take this wrong - you are not actually thinking about the situation. You have a goal and you are tinkering to try and have it, without asking seriously the implications. And I suspect without looking closes at the parecon discussion... and honestly, this does seem to recur over and over in discussions of this topic. 

My goal is simply to thoroughly vet this essay and your position. I don't have any attachment to any position. My exploratoin is through discussion, and thus you are apart of the exploration, not just a critic of my processes. Perhaps you making this judgment because I put my goals up front; that was simply because I thought through the idea and tried to decided what the idea meant and wrote that down first. I'm new to internet discussion. Is that not kosher? Yes, though, you are right, I haven't thoroughly read up on parecon, only the essays that you'e written over the past few months, but I don't see how that's relevant criticism of this idea.

>There is no last year matching outout to real needs to look at. If workplaces produce, let's say, like last year - perhaps last year we had actual parecon, and then we decided to try this, then they might produce, let's say, a million bicycles. But what if everyone decides they want a new bicycle - ten million, or thirty million. There is no reason not to decide this - there is zero cost to me to have one. 

Grant, for the sake of argument, that there are last year's matching production to needs (here's an idea of how that could happen: we produce 100 bicycles, only 10 bicyles are used. Populations growth is zero. There is a new fad where it is expected that ten more people will want bicycles. We produce 20 for next year. Or 50 bicyels were produced last year, 50 were used. Each person that wanted one after that 50 registered that desire at the store. There were 10 registers. This year we produced 60). The same million vs. thirty million bicycles problem can happen in parecon. If everyone were to decide to buy bicyles instead of violins, etc. then you could have thrity million bicycles being bought instead of your anticipated one million. It is perhaps more likely that this scneario will happen under parecon because people only are supposoed to view their money as their regulation on spending. There is zero cost for them to switch their spending from violins to bicycles. In the alternative model however people see how many bicycles there are and are perhaps more likely to curtail their consumption when it is projected to surpass the production level. But yes, there is no cost. It's based on a systed of information and self-discipline rather than of work credits and debits. In the alternative model, they should be thorough discussion, decided through the neighborhood and work councils, of what people's consumption wants/needs are likely to be. If this is done well, the thirty miillion problem would not arrive because consumer's needs/wants would have meshed with the worker's production abilty and there would be an agreement.

>Meaning, the consumer uses information to asses what is a responsible choice - and cannot, in any case, make an irresponsible one - that is what parecon achieves. The real parecon...

Yes; sort of. In fake parecon they are indeed allowed to make irresponsible choices. In real parecon, as I suggested above, they are too, just not on a macro level (as debits and credits are accounted for on the macro leve, but not the micro level).

>I get it, I think. I understand your desire. It makes no sense, honestly. Ultimately you are trying to end run people's vicersal rejection of valuations and budgets because of the associations those have in their past - very understandable. But then you slowly slide valuations and budgets back in...except in a fashion that would not work, and with some very odd constraints that are actually far more damagining to free choice than anything that even remotely arises from the acutal use of valuations and budgets in parecon...

Perhaps you better undertand my desire after reading my above comments. I think it makes sense to a degree. How do you feel about it's sense after my reply? I did not propose this idea because of any past rejections of budget and valuatoins. I only proposed it because it felt like it might make sense. Perhaps you mean that Patrick's comments prompted this thought of mine and that he rejects valuatoins and budgets; maybe he does - that doesn't matter to me, nor to this discussion as far as I can tell. Yes, there are valuations and budgets in my model. Please elbaorate more on they will not work in light of this reply and please elborate more on the odd, damaging results to free choice in light of this reply (and my modification to how I was suggesting people could share work).

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Aug 07, 2011 19:23 PM

John,

 

If you have serious concerns about parecon, or about my comments regarding anarchist concerns, please raise them and I will reply. 

 

As to the alternative you pose, honestly, I think you are more or less winging it… and I really don't have time to go back and forth over some ideas you quickly have… I will reply once more, below, despite that you are asking my reactions to quick notions, and ignoring serious formulations… but I can't do more than that. 

It is great you are thinking about these issues, but I suggest you take seriously what has been done already, as part of your thinking, and then you offer your ideas in more serious form, if you want reactions. If you have questions, though, that is great too, and this is a fine venue for that. 

 

> ...What I should have said is that everyone, sort of as a starting position, starts with equal levels of duration, intensity and onerousness. That's the level of what's needed to be done split equally. From that starting point, people can work more if they like, which would allow people to work less. Or people could work less if others were willing to work more. For example, even, people could offer consuming less and working less to one of their workmates who if they took it would feel more right consuming more and would work more too. Just to be clear: this is a modification of what I wrote earlier, due to your correct criticism (though this is what I had in mind; but that's not important). 

 

First, there can be no total amount of output, unless it is determined arbitrarily or by some authoritarian means, to split into equal amounts of work load - without valuations and judgements about what people want, not least in light of work outlays it would entail. The idea that people could then deviate from an unknown average - let's suppose it was known though it really is unknown - in a kind of barter is also not coherent. Why should I have to hunt around for an exact trade with someone else? Or vice versa? The trade off across the whole society is accomplished by just incomes.

 

> It will be made known how much is an average share, through charts or diagrams or other posintgs. 

 

Arriving at an average share does not precede judgements but is a large part of the aim of judgements… not to mention, the above means nothing. Think about it - what do you do to convey what an average share of output is, put pictures of items that compose it? What if I want other items - how many of my preferred items equals your average pile?

 

> This informs the consumer's decision of how much to eat. Perhaps, if there is someone with a large appetitie, to secure the system and  feel good about their decision, the consumer enters into a pact with another consumer who consumes less. Adjustments will have to be made of course, but they will be of similar nature to those that must be made in parecon, because parecon only guaratnees that the total debits and credits match, not individual industries/products.

 

To eat more I have to hunt around for someone to eat less? Seriously? Why not just consume less of something else - so I can afford more food - or why not work more, so I have extra funds for it - but notice, you are now implicitly accepting budgets, but with no basis for trade offs - because you have no valuations. The kinds of things you are trying to achieve are in fact done by parecon, smoothly and without detriment. If you don't think that is the case, then say why - first… If participatory planning isn't faulty in these matters, then trying to achieve economic life without valuations and actual budgets makes no sense - it is unmotivated.

 

Suppose someone said they wanted to have great health care, but not medicine, no temperature taking, etc. Why, you would wonder? In addition to thinking, well that's going to be an impossible pursuit. 

 

> My goal is simply to thoroughly vet this essay and your position. 

 

By this essay, I assume you mean the one under which you placed your comment. You have not referred to anything in it, I think. Have not asked about its claims. Have not even rejected any claims. So how are you trying to vet it?

 

If you go to a doctor and he tells you something about health care, or your health, or whatever, and you want to test it, you ask questions. You might say something strikes you as troubling or odd. You might even say you think something is wrong - though that would presumably require that you have some related background, or something. You don't make up, out of the blue, with almost no serious time or testing, an alternative set of ideas and then ask him to criticize them… do you? I think it is pretty similar, honestly. 


I give a talk on parecon say. Or noam does on linguistics, say, or anyone, on something they have worked long and hard on, and that others have adopted and tested and so on. You don't raise a question, you don't offer a doubt or criticism - you simply rush in with an alternative, I think off the top of your head - as if there is some need for it, but without indicating what that need is. And then you expect me to spend time reacting… as if your proposal is serious, and implicitly as if there is really an issue that needs work…

 

>>There is no last year matching output to real needs to look at. If workplaces produce, let's say, like last year - perhaps last year we had actual parecon, and then we decided to try this, then they might produce, let's say, a million bicycles. But what if everyone decides they want a new bicycle - ten million, or thirty million. There is no reason not to decide this - there is zero cost to me to have one. 

 

> Grant, for the sake of argument, that there are last year's matching production to needs. 

 

There can be no matching of production to needs unless there is a way to gauge the value of production - and the extent of needs. To grant it in any way whatsoever is to grant the key issue of the discussion - before the fact.

 

> (here's an idea of how that could happen: we produce 100 bicycles, only 10 bicyles are used. …..

 

I am not sure what you are trying to say - that level of discord, if generalized, would be the end of civilization…and the rest of the paragraph is incomprehensible to me. Sorry…

 

>>Meaning, the consumer uses information to asses what is a responsible choice - and cannot, in any case, make an irresponsible one - that is what parecon achieves. The real parecon...

 

> Yes; sort of. In fake parecon they are indeed allowed to make irresponsible choices. 

 

It is not just that they are allowed to - if the norm is to take what you choose to take, calling it your needs, and work at the level you choose to work, calling it ability - then, in fact, the system says there is NOTHING wrong with consuming twice what you would have in a market system, say, or ten times, or fifty times. And working half, or a tenth, or a hundredth…

 

If the norm is to be responsible, then there must be information to use to make responsible judgements. 

 

> Perhaps you better undertand my desire after reading my above comments. 

 

I think what I thought before. You want to propose something that keeps large aspects of parecon but does away with income, budgets, and valuations… but you have offered no reason whatever why that is something that needs doing - nor that it is something that would have any benefits at all - nor that it is something which would not have catastrophic implications. Nonetheless you want me to comment on your way of doing it…but you don't really address what comments I offer.

 

> I did not propose this idea because of any past rejections of budget and valuatoins. I only proposed it because it felt like it might make sense. 

 

You think it is okay to propose stuff that is quite contrary to the essence of the article you are responding to, for me to reply to, offering no reasons for rejecting what is already there, but as a comment on something I wrote, because, well, it might make sense? Well, it doesn't. That shouldn't be upsetting. Why should a quick attempt to do something impossible make sense?

 

> Yes, there are valuations and budgets in my model. Please elbaorate more on they will not work in light of this reply and please elborate more on the odd, damaging results to free choice in light of this reply (and my modification to how I was suggesting people could share work).

 

There are not valuations, there are not budgets - at least not sensible - unless there is a means to assess the strength of preferences and costs and benefits of options, as well as constraints on what can have from the social product….

 

If you have something that concerns you about parecon which makes you think it needs correction because it would be harmful, or not work, excellent. Let me know, and I will try to react. But if you want to offer some new system or other, also excellent, but please do it seriously, work it out, put it in an essay, or blog post of your own, etc. Great. I do recommend, though, that before doing that in any domain you take seriously similar work in that domain…

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Kenny, John at Aug 08, 2011 03:08 AM

> For example, I still have not heard how the remunerative norm you seem to want would yield relative valuations, would allow me to know how much I should work to be responsible, would guide investments or even amounts to be produced of each item, and would let me consume more by working more, or consume less by working less, or even know what is fair consumption. These are not small problems. They are like saying a hospital with medicine or operations would be more pleasant - ignoring the minor byproducts of eliminating medicine and operations. Except for one thing. A person saying that could point to the downside of medicine and operations - I haven't heard what the downside is of equitable remuneration.

I think it was this paragraph which made me feel you would be open to hearing a description of how the parecon system could be modified to work without money and without money being tied to work to consumption. I tried to make it clear that I was offering said explanation in absence of Patrick doing it.

> First, there can be no total amount of output, unless it is determined arbitrarily or by some authoritarian means, to split into equal amounts of work load - without valuations and judgments about what people want, not least in light of work outlays it would entail. The idea that people could then deviate from an unknown average - let's suppose it was known though it really is unknown - in a kind of barter is also not coherent.

The total output could be determined by the work and neighborhood councils just as in parecon. Price tags could be assigned and so could salaries. The difference would be that you wouldn't  have to actually hand over cash; you wouldn't have to have "earned" the product. You could still keep track if you wanted to though.

> Why should I have to hunt around for an exact trade with someone else? Or vice versa?

I believe it is parecon that suggests that your workplace has too approve, rightly, of people's desires to work more or less hours in parecon. This is hunting around for a trade with someone else, is it not?

> Arriving at an average share does not precede judgments but is a large part of the aim of judgments… not to mention, the above means nothing. Think about it - what do you do to convey what an average share of output is, put pictures of items that compose it? What if I want other items - how many of my preferred items equals your average pile?

One way that the average share could be depicted is by knowing how much one's work is worth in terms of money, and by having price tags on all of the products.

> To eat more I have to hunt around for someone to eat less? Seriously?

No you don't HAVE to. I didn't say that. Some people might do that though.

> Why not just consume less of something else - so I can afford more food - or why not work more, so I have extra funds for it - but notice, you are now implicitly accepting budgets, but with no basis for trade offs - because you have no valuations

You can do all of those things. There are valuations, and budgets are okay.

> The kinds of things you are trying to achieve are in fact done by parecon, smoothly and without detriment. If you don't think that is the case, then say why - first… If participatory planning isn't faulty in these matters, then trying to achieve economic life without valuations and actual budgets makes no sense - it is unmotivated.

This point is very well taken; thank you for raising it.

My immediate motivation was Patrick's and your's back and forth as I explained at the beginning of this reply. However, that doesn't speak to any greater motivation, except those concerns which Patrick raised. My greater motivation is that my initial feeling is that it seems fairer to say people can consume what they want and that they don't have to work for it; but I'm not sure that I believe that now. Thus, after this reply I will drop this experiment and discussion on this alternative.

> By this essay, I assume you mean the one under which you placed your comment. You have not referred to anything in it, I think. Have not asked about its claims. Have not even rejected any claims. So how are you trying to vet it?

I meant to say the Patrick-you discussion and questions/challenges raised.

> and the rest of the paragraph is incomprehensible to me. Sorry…

Here's the part that's still relevant. To remind you, it was responding to the following comment:

>> There is no last year matching output to real needs to look at. If workplaces produce, let's say, like last year - perhaps last year we had actual parecon, and then we decided to try this, then they might produce, let's say, a million bicycles. But what if everyone decides they want a new bicycle - ten million, or thirty million. There is no reason not to decide this - there is zero cost to me to have one.

Parecon matches total production to total consumption, but it doesn't match production and consumption within specific industries. It's perfectly possible that everyone could use their money to buy bicycles one year, amounting to thirty million bicycles being demanded - when only one million were produced. This is allowable because people in parecon see that they have money and then they see the costs of bikes. This leads them to believe that they can all purchase bikes, when in fact there are only one million bikes and thirty million people with enough money to purchase them - a discord. In other words, there is no cost to the people in parecon to switch their spending around dramatically between industries in total mismatch of production. While the people in parecon have indeed worked and produced, they didn't necessarily work and produce in the bike industry and thus production and consumption can be mismatch on the industry level constantly.

> It is not just that they are allowed to - if the norm is to take what you choose to take, calling it your needs, and work at the level you choose to work, calling it ability - then, in fact, the system says there is NOTHING wrong with consuming twice what you would have in a market system, say, or ten times, or fifty times.

Your conscious and self-discipline are the only costs. That's the basis on which the model was developed. I see that you don't think that it's a good model. That's fine.

> And working half, or a tenth, or a hundredth…

As I said, I corrected the model so that this criticism is no longer true. Change in work hours would require consent of workplace, just as in parecon.

> If the norm is to be responsible, then there must be information to use to make responsible judgements.

Information is available, as I've described in this reply.

> but you don't really address what comments I offer.

Of course you don't have to, but if you want to, you can let me know if they are now addressed.

> Why should a quick attempt to do something impossible make sense?

The feasibility had not yet been decided.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Albert, Michael at Aug 08, 2011 14:00 PM

John,

> I think it was this paragraph which made me feel you would be open to hearing a description of how the parecon system could be modified to work without money and without money being tied to work to consumption. I tried to make it clear that I was offering said explanation in absence of Patrick doing it.

 

You keep pushing, despite my attempts at gently trying to indicate it is beyond reasonable - so, okay, I believe your proposals are absurd - and honestly, of more concern, so is the attempt to do it.

 

Suppose I say that due to the laws of thermodynamics you cannot have a perpetual motion machine. Samuel doesn't then address those laws - he simply put forth one proposals after another for such a machine, and by putting those in my mailbox, asks me to show what is wrong with each. Do you see how that could get annoying? If Samuel wants to make such proposals he can go do so - but not in my box, so to speak...

 

Okay, I say that to have an economy in which people can take what they want and work as they choose is inconsistent with survival even, much less with fulfillment.

Now, you don't offer a reason why that is wrong - you essentially ignore it - and start offering half baked (sorry, I have to be honest) proposals for doing it, causing me to feel pushed - you are commenting to me - to go back and forth endlessly about it.

You do this, moreover, without even offering a serious reason why you are doing it…that is, identifying a problem with having people have just incomes. I am very open to hearing serious proposals for anything having to do with vision, parecon or otherwise. But that doesn't mean I can go back and forth over something you dream up endlessly - with no actual problem you are trying to solve, even - about what you think maybe has some merit, but that you have not seriously formulated, thought through, tested, etc. If you did all that, I think you would dump it, in time… But if not, then you would write your own essay offering your ideas. Great.

>> First, there can be no total amount of output, unless it is determined arbitrarily or by some authoritarian means, to split into equal amounts of work load - without valuations and judgments about what people want, not least in light of work outlays it would entail. The idea that people could then deviate from an unknown average - let's suppose it was known though it really is unknown - in a kind of barter is also not coherent.

> The total output could be determined by the work and neighborhood councils just as in parecon. 

 

"Just as in parecon" means they engage in a back and forth cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs where the fact that work in linked to incomes and valuations determines what incomes can purchase. You have thrown all that out… It is not remotely as in parecon.

 

> Price tags could be assigned and so could salaries. The difference would be that you wouldn't  have to actually hand over cash; you wouldn't have to have "earned" the product. You could still keep track if you wanted to though.

 

No, I am sorry, but that is what economists call assuming the result as a given. Think it through, really think it through… Or, easier, if you go read longer presentations, you will see the logic and then, maybe find a flaw, and maybe not.

There can't be prices and income/budgets unless there are, and they are established in accord with true social costs and benefits (or not, to the detriment of all).

 

Honestly, you don't know how parecon works…so you probably shouldn't say, or think, something is just like it…

 

When you say you "You can assign price tags" - that doesn't mean anything unless you mean some authority can do it and they are real, as in used. Which replaces participatory planning with central planning. If you mean each unit does it separately, that replaces systemic coherence with chaos… unless some mechanism brings them all into accord. Competition can do that, with disastrous consequences. Participatory planning can do it - with the consequences you actually want.

 

But mostly, as far as prices and output, you can't have anything but guesses unless you reveal desires and possibilities which in turn determine agendas - that is what allocation needs to do to be desirable. Your solutions to not having :valuations and budgets - that is what you are rejecting in rejecting what you call money and linkage of work to income, is to say, okay let's dump those attributes - because someone said he didn't like them, without giving any reason why - and then let's get back the benefits they should have - but your way of getting back the benefits is effectively by fiat, or by anything you happen to have, as a hunch, come up with. You simply say, without seriously thinking about it or formulating it - do it this way, or do it that way, or whatever way strikes you. I can't go back and forth cleaning up each and every one… they are all - I am sorry but you are pushing - ignorant of the requisites of socially producing and consuming - which is not too surprising, since you are proposing them willy nilly. But more, there is simply no incentive - he he - that is, neither you nor anyone has identified a problem with valuations or budgets per se, that needs fixing by somehow disconnecting labor and income… so why spend time trying to do that? This is the analogy with the opening thermodynamics example.

You are trying to take X out of a process that depends on X, without having established, or in your case, I think, even suggested that X necessarily has bad effects. 

 

Now I have said please read the serious works, if you are serious about all this, you should have time for that - that way, you use me, if you like - but without taking new time of mine. And you are taking a whole lot of my time, now - when you could be getting far better and tighter formulations from available material. Then you will be in position to actually assess it, perhaps even improve it… 

 

But what is even more odd, is again that there is no reason whatever to do what you are suggesting - none offered, at any rate.

 

Are there debits of current modes of budgeting and valuating now that should motivate you to prefer to do away with them as they are now? You bet. So do we have to change? Of course.

What parecon does, you will find, is what you want to do - eliminate the alienation and subordination that emerges from current modes of valuation and budgeting, but still achieve production and consumption that meets human needs and develops human capacities while advancing values we like - self management, etc. - and without classes.

But, if you look closely and seriously, and you find, against my expectations, hey, parecon fails because of its budgets and/or valuations - or for any other reason - okay, then you can ask me about that. If I can't convince you the system is fine, okay, you will have motivation to try to come up with an alternative…

> I believe it is parecon that suggests that your workplace has to approve, rightly, of people's desires to work more or less hours in parecon. This is hunting around for a trade with someone else, is it not?

 

No. It isn't. Work is correlated to desired output - because work has to be socially valuable which means producing desired output. When people want more or less income - if they then, to get it, work more or less - output goes up or down - connecting, not precisely, to their income change…(the change could easily be more, very unlikely to be less). 

 

In parecon, we get remunerated for socially valuable labor - so I can't just proclaim that I want more income - I have to be doing something to warrant my getting it. Inside one workplace, this does mean I have to work longer, or harder, etc. socially usefully. And if the plan exists, and my desire changes say to wanting more income - then my working more in my plant, if no one in it is opting to work less, and if we can't stockpile for future demand, and if we can't do research or something else desireble, entails that the desires for output of my plant have gone up some. But that is not the only avenue to getting more income. I can also work outside even all the places I currently work…I can go to a facilitation board, say, and get help finding a place that wants/needs some part time help…

 

That it is isn't easy/trivial to simply raise one's income (actually for the most part it probably will be in that others will indeed want less - but not the guy standing next to me I barter with) is as it ought to be - because extra work should generate desired output and diminished work should not renege on promised output.

 

That is a very compactified short answer - a long one has to go through the logic of allocation. This is true for almost everything you ask… which is why I keep telling you, go read long renditions…
 

>>One way that the average share could be depicted is by knowing how much one's work is worth in terms of money, and by having price tags on all of the products.

 

Price tags can't magically appear - they have to reflect something and be binding. So, they can reflect a dictator's decision, or a planning board, or votes, or outcomes of market competition, or outcomes of cooperative negotiation…and so on. Now you can either read that and say, wait, what about this, to yourself - and go read fuller presentations to see what they in fact say and the logic and so on. Or you can read it, and in two minutes, say, wait, what about this - and write me about your new notion - this is what, after awhile, is like the thermodynamics example...

I am going to skip some of what you wrote…sorry…no time…

>> The kinds of things you are trying to achieve are in fact done by parecon, smoothly and without detriment. If you don't think that is the case, then say why - first… If participatory planning isn't faulty in these matters, then trying to achieve economic life without valuations and actual budgets makes no sense - it is unmotivated.

> This point is very well taken; thank you for raising it.

 

Hmmmmm…if you actually mean that - why did you reply again with other than that one sentence? The point is, there is no motivation for what you are trying to do, because there is no problem it is addressing, so why ask me to react to it?

> My immediate motivation was Patrick's and your's back and forth as I explained at the beginning of this reply. However, that doesn't speak to any greater motivation, except those concerns which Patrick raised. My greater motivation is that my initial feeling is that it seems fairer to say people can consume what they want and that they don't have to work for it; but I'm not sure that I believe that now. Thus, after this reply I will drop this experiment and discussion on this alternative.

 

Fair enough. But you shouldn't not believe it, or believe it, strongly, yet - is my strong guess. Why don't you read carefully about it, and think it through, first. Spend your time that way, not here, for now. Then, if you want to ask me about that - okay, sure. It is asking me about pretty much random corrections of a problem that doesn't exist - that is getting a bit time consuming…to no end…

> Parecon matches total production to total consumption, but it doesn't match production and consumption within specific industries. 

 

No. Parecon does both. The number of bikes to be produced matches, with some slack, the number of bikes people anticipate consuming - both can change during  the year. The total output of society matches what the total outlay of labor time and effort is able to produce - each side of this can also change, during the year…

 

> It's perfectly possible that everyone could use their money to buy bicycles one year, amounting to thirty million bicycles being demanded - when only one million were produced. 

 

No, it isn't. It is possible, yes - though not likely in the same sense as lightening striking repeatedly in the same building - that simultaneously desires change in huge numbers of people - from toothpaste to bicycles…but it is possible for real unexpected reasons, say, changes in weather, or some discovery, etc., for changes to occur that are more sensible trades. But parecon then simply accommodates by altering the allocation of labor, and thus the composition of output. Again, I could walk you through all this here - on the fly - but it makes much more sense to look closely at carefully developed presentations.

 

> This is allowable because people in parecon see that they have money and then they see the costs of bikes. This leads them to believe that they can all purchase bikes, when in fact there are only one million bikes and thirty million people with enough money to purchase them - a discord. In other words, there is no cost to the people in parecon to switch their spending around dramatically between industries in total mismatch of production. While the people in parecon have indeed worked and produced, they didn't necessarily work and produce in the bike industry and thus production and consumption can be mismatch on the industry level constantly.

 

I am sorry, bur really, honestly, it is not that what you are saying is dumb…it isn't. But each time it is really quite wrong, in context - and I just can't follow you from area to area…with you making up how parecon works, and then alternatives…and I hve to deal with each...

> Your conscious and self-discipline are the only costs. That's the basis on which the model was developed. I see that you don't think that it's a good model. That's fine.

 

Actually, you don't - I am not saying people can't be caring and responsible. I am saying a system that does not provide real valuations and budgets, but says work however much you want, consume what you want - is telling people that it is responsible to do whatever they want. And in that case they will. Now if you add, instead an instructtion, do what you want - but be responsible to the community and to equity, etc. - fine. But the problem now is, people will lack information that enables them to do that. They won't know the relative costs and the appropriate amount, either, that they should take given the work they do. Now you say, no problem - just put little tags on everything…but those tags must be accurate embodiments of the true social and ecological costs and benefits of actions in their complete implications. Such valuations can't just be stated or guessed...

 

If you actually read longer renditions of parecon you will see that it is developed precisely, step by step, in many of them, to accomplish facilitating responsible behavior by producers and consumers… It asks, what would it mean to be a responsible producer or consumer. Then it asks, what would you need to know. Then it asks, what institutions can deliver that information?

> As I said, I corrected the model so that this criticism is no longer true. Change in work hours would require consent of workplace, just as in parecon.

 

I am sorry, but you don't know what it means to make something in an economic model true… sorry, but that is the case - not surprisingly, given that you are just winging it. What you say here again means nothing, unless there are real budgets. In parecon a workplace's total income for its workers depends on it utilizing its assets in a socially beneficial way, but again, how do we even know what is beneficial and what isn't?

 

If I work in a plant, and the system says I can have, and everyone else there can also have, the same income they have now - the same consumption - or even more, if they so choose - but they can all work, in sum, half as much - what do you think is a responsible decision by the whole workplace? I think it is to work half as much and do useful things with the accrued time, either personally, or together…enjoyable, fulfilling, maybe restful, whatever - things. Why not? No reason.

If you are now saying, well, no, the whole workplace's output can't change much from the plan so they can't all do that - then the issue becomes, where did the plan come from? What you are doing, and will wind up with, is participatory planning…as you keep modifying, is my very strong guess. But I just can't do it with you…online, like this.

> Of course you don't have to, but if you want to, you can let me know if they are now addressed.

 

No, they are not.

>> Why should a quick attempt to do something impossible make sense?

> The feasibility had not yet been decided.

 

Nor has the feasibility of parecon. Or anything else, until it is enacted. But we can make judgements. Perhaps you should consider that, before with no understanding that I can see of economics per se, or the functioning of economies, or parecon, none displayed, at any rate, you don't ask questions and pursue understanding, which would be fine - but instead start right out proposing new ways of doing things and expect them to be and even say they are valid, and expect me to go back and forth with you about them… and you aren't even willing to take a serious look at what you say you are serious about addressing and what you keep saying you are doing things like - when you aren't.

 

I have said this gently - I hope - a few times now. But the above is a bit more abrupt and forceful. I am sorry, but gentle isn't getting through. You are a smart fellow - with good insights - but they are spontaneous and without serious basis or thought. You are just flinging them around. Once or twice, okay. But to keep on - after a awhile that is not okay. Take your time. Prepare yourself. Exert some effort - he he - to understanding the domain you are considering. You will likely do good work. 

 

But for now, please, unless you have explicit questions about the piece I wrote, don't hand me spontaneous proposals to react to, attached to that piece. I have a responsibility to read what is put here as comments, and I feel a compulsion to not ignore people. I feel, at this point, you should see that to ask me about your spontaneous proposals is not appropriate any longer… To write them up for people to assess, would be fine, though I think they need a lot more thought, first…

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Re: Re: Re: Stop lights, etc.

By Frchristie, Frederic at Jul 10, 2011 18:47 PM

"> "Do you really want to say that for working five hours five days a week, you should get the same income I get for working eight hours a day, five days a week, in the same industry, at the same pace?" Absolutely. And if the nature of work is still so odious that pay differential is required, then I'd say we're a far ways away from a just economy." Everyone always says this: The people who work longer hours should just do so for society. They will just work harder when it is necessary bcause they are so nice. But the problem is that the person working five hours a day is being anti-social if he LETS me work eight hours a day and make just as much as him. He is acting as if he is entitled to the increase in the social production. How bourgeois is that? People don't deserve free stuff, aside from the basics of survival (food, shelter, medicine, etc.) It is childish and obscene to behave as if I deserve a car, or a microwave, or a video game, or whatever other consumer good I want, without having to work for it. Saying that people shouldn't get as much for working less isn't being capitalistic or anti-social, it's not being a sucker. Asking people to give up for the social order is grotesque and draconian. And then insisting that they do so while others work less hard or less onerously is unjust and unfair. This is to say nothing of the incentive value. If you want people second-guessing the whole system and trying to find ways to cheat, then you can guarantee that by making it so that some people can work less and make just as much. Again, this is saying nothing of the fact that it is a CHOICE to work harder to get more stuff or to work less hard to get less stuff, such that "From each according to his/[her] ability, to each according to his/[her] need" is actually a one-size-fits-all solution.

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some conversations ive had

By McGehee, Michael at Jul 06, 2011 18:39 PM

your essays have gotten some anarchists i know discussing (sometimes constructively, sometimes not) parecon and there’s been a few of them who ive been able to discuss it with and i think it was productive. some have not been as capable or willing to actually discuss. they seem to prefer to go through polemical motions of attacking parecon, almost always on total misunderstanding and with no interest to consider otherwise (very depressing).

some dont like the coordinator class analysis cuz they say it divides the working class and alienates them from potential allies (ie coordinators). ive pointed out that if our goal is a classless economy then we must understand what classes are (that its not just about relations to property, but how institutional processes inequitably divide power) and that inequitable (or imbalanced or hierarchical or corporate and other synonyms) divisions of labor create class divisions and if we fail to recognize this and adopt a program that deals with divisions of labor then we dont have an alliance with the coordinating class, were subservient to and stooges for them; that we wouldnt be creating a revolutionary working class movement but a revolutionary coordinator class movement.

some dont like remuneration at all . . . and some mysteriously endorse the communist creed of "from each ... to each" and like in your essay ive tried to understand what they mean by that, how it would be implemented while at the same time trying to understand what it is about "remunerative justice" they dont like. ive been told their skeptical cuz of who and how would it be implemented. i told them it would be a democratic process carried out by those who implemented it (ie the workers) but that the point to the norm is to underlie that the only thing we should be rewarded for is the only thing we control: our effort and sacrifice. i asked why their skeptical concern doesnt apply to the communist creed since it and every other norm should suffer from the same concern: who and how would it be implemented. i also pointed out that that concern doesnt really deal with the norm itself.

i was even told that remunerative justice is patriarchical. never really understood how that was so. the unclear impression i was given is that effort and sacrifice is some how masculine. i think the person may have a fixed idea of everyone being expected to produce at the level of some muscle-bound dude. i pointed out just as the communist creed does not have a fixed level of ability expected from each person nor a fixed level of need to give, so too is remunerative justice subjective. our peers might judge that though we didnt spit out as much as so-and-so we still worked our asses off. i also said personally i think remunerative justice is a more clarified version of the communist creed cuz i think any sensible communist would judge abilities by a persons effort and sacrifice and that need would reflect needs, desires, preferences, wants, etc so that ultimately the more the person sacrifices of their abilities to produce social goods the more they would be rewarded to take from the social product.

one thing i heard is that parecon quantifies value throughout social life and we should get away from that. this was accompanied with claims that somehow parecon is economistic. i had to point out how often robin and you stress in your writings that parecon is but one element of society and is only dealing with economic life. and i inquired how exactly could we go about knowing what resources we have and what people's preferences for work and consumption were without quantifying values, especially if we not only want to satisfy our material condition but be good stewards of the environment.

i also pointed out that parecon operates under the assumption that there are scare resources--natural and labor--and that considering our current predicament the assumption is more than warranted; that utilizing resources in one place entails less for use elsewhere. and even if we somehow had an infinite amount of resources so that every person could fulfill all of their preferences--and i find this highly unrealistic--we would still need some democratic participatory planning process to know that.

I found that in a number of conversations I end up saying that i see social ownership as the solution to private enterprise; participatory planning the solution to central planning and markets; equitable divisions of labor as the solution to inequitable divisions of labor; and remunerative justice as the solution to rewarding power and output. and that if there were any other ideas as fleshed out and better then these i would love to hear them. 
 
on the remuneration norm i was told as if this was a serious complaint that parecon encourages people to do miserable work. i said this was a very odd complaint to levy since considering one of the existing problems we face is that people are rewarded for doing empowering work, leaving those who do the shit work like garbage collecting and sewer cleaning getting less reward, and asked what is so wrong with providing a positive incentive to do "miserable work"? should miserable work not be rewarded? just a very odd and poorly thought out comment, i thought. 
 
Ive also been told there is a concern one could “fake” their way into a higher consumption rating. I said if i somehow cheated a higher consumption rating by faking increased effort and sacrifice, which would technically be getting more for less, its not the doing less that drives up the costs, its the getting more. by reducing our resources via increased consumption im driving up the costs of consumption. my attempt to fake my way through has blown up in my face. the really only sound way to get more for less is to reduce the costs of production in the first place. and again, doing that would be a net gain for all. I was told from there that they think the personal net gain could be more than the social cost. Another thing I found myself saying is that we have creative faculties and the ability to foresee potential problems such as these we also have the creative faculties to plan ahead to resolve them. But again, this has less to do with the norm itself than the prospects of deceit which, unless we don’t reward at all, will always be a problem. But not rewarding is also problematic. im inclined to think that if people feel they can take without giving they are inclined to demonstrate the free rider problem.

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Re: some conversations ive had

By Albert, Michael at Jul 08, 2011 17:41 PM

some dont like the coordinator class analysis cuz they say it divides the working class and alienates them from potential allies (ie coordinators).

The earliest versions of it were anarchist - bakunin, among others.

Your other comments on it seem dead on, to me.

> some dont like remuneration at all . . . 

That is just word play - they of course want people to eat...

> ive been told their skeptical cuz of who and how would it be implemented.

If someone says that, but have no idea how it would be implemented - ask them how they can reject something not knowing what it is... I encounter it often, too.

Again, your reactions seem warranted to me...

> i was even told that remunerative justice is patriarchical. never really understood how that was so.

Not surprising given that it is ludicrous...

> the unclear impression i was given is that effort and sacrifice is some how masculine.

Some things people find themselves saying to justify a stance taken for other reasons entirely, are truly fantastic...

> i think the person may have a fixed idea of everyone being expected to produce at the level of some muscle-bound dude. i pointed out just as the communist creed does not have a fixed level of ability expected from each person nor a fixed level of need to give, so too is remunerative justice subjective.

You are very generous...sort of...though again, how could anyone have even a passing knowledge of parecon and think such things? One couldn't. So they don't. So it is just utterances to justify apriori rejection...it seems to me.

one thing i heard is that parecon quantifies value throughout social life and we should get away from that. this was accompanied with claims that somehow parecon is economistic.

All this stuff comes up in the next essay, I think...

> i had to point out how often robin and you stress in your writings that parecon is but one element of society and is only dealing with economic life. and i inquired how exactly could we go about knowing what resources we have and what people's preferences for work and consumption were without quantifying values, especially if we not only want to satisfy our material condition but be good stewards of the environment.

Actually, our answer is much stronger than that. Parecon is very explicit about the qualitative information being paramount and only summarized by the numbers. This complaint like most others is incredibly ironic and frustrating - because to my knowledge there is no other effort at dealing seriously with economics that is remotely as attuned to this type concern as parecon...it is at the heart of the system...

I found that in a number of conversations I end up saying that i see social ownership as the solution to private enterprise; participatory planning the solution to central planning and markets; equitable divisions of labor as the solution to inequitable divisions of labor; and remunerative justice as the solution to rewarding power and output. and that if there were any other ideas as fleshed out and better then these i would love to hear them. 

Me too...
 
> on the remuneration norm i was told as if this was a serious complaint that parecon encourages people to do miserable work. i said this was a very odd complaint to levy since considering one of the existing problems we face is that people are rewarded for doing empowering work, leaving those who do the shit work like garbage collecting and sewer cleaning getting less reward, and asked what is so wrong with providing a positive incentive to do "miserable work"? should miserable work not be rewarded? just a very odd and poorly thought out comment, i thought. 

Correct.
 
> Ive also been told there is a concern one could “fake” their way into a higher consumption rating.

And the same person who says this, without knowing anything of how the system works, typically suggests that he or she prefers that we just get to say what we need and we get it...amazing...

> I was told from there that they think the personal net gain could be more than the social cost.

This is why it is a social planning process, not each person deciding individually...

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The Drop-Back-In Option

By Yearwood, Kelvin at Jul 04, 2011 12:13 PM

"One small branch of anarchism called primitivists, condemns Parecon for including work and workplaces, inputs and outputs, production and allocation and takes for granted the continuation of industrial civilization."

I have encountered this myself. I was told that someone standing at a lathe making an axle for an ambulance was being exploited absolutely, in any social relations of production.

What I will say to this is, that when a certain safety net of wealth production and related privilege is gauranteed it is not very onerous to opt out of the industrialised society and engage in primitivist ideas. Real, material "primitivism", as experienced by the developing world margins in the rural landscape, is not to be recommended. They would not recommend it to us, except as a way not to live. Unless having your small farmland being sold from beneath you and being driven into the open sewers of shanty towns, when convenient for the local political/economic elites, is seen as progressive.

The people who work actively and hard in the union movement usually understand its short-comings, its heirarchical nature etc., etc., but they work at it and make a difference. Anarchists in the West would have much poorer lives if it were not for these people's imperfect efforts.

Perhaps anarchists, especially male anarchists, in my experience, need to get f**king real for a moment, and see that organised activism can and does make a difference; and waiting for the perfect opportunity, vehicle or context for beginning organised resistance is yet more evidence of privilege, of immaturity, of inexcusable filibustering in the face of much greater and pressing issues facing people in the developing world, and in the increasingly deprived areas of the West.

Question organised activism, yes, but be active and organised. Otherwise we are simply poseurs.

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Re: The Drop-Back-In Option

By Wittke, Trevor at Aug 29, 2011 17:27 PM

 

>> What I will say to this is, that when a certain safety net of wealth production and related privilege is gauranteed it is not very onerous to opt out of the industrialised society and engage in primitivist ideas. Real, material "primitivism", as experienced by the developing world margins in the rural landscape, is not to be recommended. They would not recommend it to us, except as a way not to live. Unless having your small farmland being sold from beneath you and being driven into the open sewers of shanty towns, when convenient for the local political/economic elites, is seen as progressive.

this is only a minor trifle, particularly considering that no-one has yet responded to this post, however the tone of this comment kind of bugs me.  I just want to say i think there is a lot of uninterrogated privilege embedded within this post (specifically a western modernist view that looks at the rest of the world as either victimized or backwards and in need of salvation ie being more like yourself).

For instance the above description of "Real material primitivist" has nothing to do with primitive societies but rather is a description of one of some of the most effective political constituencies currently organizing around the world - you're describing the MST in Brasil, the anti-dam and anti-poverty movements in India, the Zapatistas in Mexico, etc.  The process of displacement that you describe is not advocated by anyone - self-identified primitivist or the so-called "real material primitivist" - and it is not seen as progressive.  But what has been seen as progressive is the massive organized (and unorganized) resistance that has emerged to this process of displacement and in defense of the kind of lifestyle (small rural farmer in potions of the world that have not been completely integrated into capitalist-modernity) you seem to assume no-one would want to live.  The strangest part of this is how you transfer your own assumptions on to the other, "They would not recommend it to us, except as a way not to live."  Have you discussed this with any "Real, material 'primitivist"'?  Have the rural peasants of the developing world told you that they don't wish to defend their ways of life and or that they would not recommend it to others?  Oh and how are rural farmers primitivist - which is generally associated with pre-argian hunter gather societies?  There are real uncontacted indigenous groups throughout the world (ie "primitives") and while they probably don't want to talk to "us" i bet they would love it if all of us returned to a similar social structure and stopped impinging on the ever dwindling spaces to which they've become confined as a result of modern industrial civilization.     

 

>> The people who work actively and hard in the union movement usually understand its short-comings, its heirarchical nature etc., etc., but they work at it and make a difference. Anarchists in the West would have much poorer lives if it were not for these people's imperfect efforts.

yeah the golden days of unionism achieved some great gains (and anarchist were absolutely essential to achieving these gains), that is not the same as what is currently taking place within organized labor - particularly in the US.  Major unions are characterized by infighting (unite here, seiu) and wasting time in the political arena achieving zero gains through the legislative process despite the essential role they play in mobilizing the democratic base.  the only bright spots have come out of wisconsin and the public employee unions (like the CNA) which are the last bastion of union strength and the autonomous initiatives of the workers themselves.  

And the point you make about relative quality of living is a good one because yes those in the West/US have benefited form unions improving the quality of living of specific segments of the population relative to other demographics that necessarily get left behind.  For instance the grand bargain between labor and capital during and after world war II ensured capital would have stable labor relations and workers could get a comfortable and convenient middle class existence.  this however didn't extend to women, most minorities or the global south thus the relative gains experienced in the west by some came at the relative deprivation of others elsewhere.  now that's not progress - it's an increase in global inequality and the defense of unjust privileges doled out in a capitalist economy.


>>  Perhaps anarchists, especially male anarchists, in my experience, need to get f**king real for a moment, and see that organised activism can and does make a difference; and waiting for the perfect opportunity, vehicle or context for beginning organised resistance is yet more evidence of privilege, of immaturity, of inexcusable filibustering in the face of much greater and pressing issues facing people in the developing world, and in the increasingly deprived areas of the West.

do you really think this is going to motivate anyone? either we do what you've decided is the necessary activity to respond to the existing conditions of oppression - without any analysis supporting this position - or you'll call us names and make assumptions about what we may or may not be doing and our social location.  Let’s get organized or you’re a immature privileged poser. 

The funny thing is that this statement is ironic as hell.  It comes from a place of privilege (your claiming a privileged position vis-a-via the truth and necessity of your political orientation relative to the “primitivist” without actually engaging in an open an honest dialogue with people who hold this perspective – besides calling them names and dismissing them in forums where they aren’t really even represented. now I understand  im making a bit of an assumption here however your inability to describe the kind of social structure that primitivists advocate leads me to conclude you haven’t actually read, heard or understood what primitivist advocate.  The assumption that your just right without actually engaging and debating primitivism is an example of uninterrogated privilege – you can dismiss, exclude and ridicule people you don’t understand, but this is not a productive politics that will facilitate the necessary kinds of heterogeneous organizations needed to confront structures of exploitation and oppression.).  It’s also immature to use flawed argumentation that posits that we must do what you say, absent any justification, or, you’ll call us names. Name calling, and “or else” statements are not a mature modes of communication or argumentation/persuasion.  And finally your mode of argumentation and debate is in effect a filibuster.  You don’t seem to know who or what you’re criticizing, yet you feel that you can unilaterally shout it down on the internet (in a forum with few if any primitivist).  And finally yes there are more pressing issues around the world, however this also applies not just to the shortcomings of primitivism but also internet sectarianism. If there is going to be a strong progressive left it will require some organizational basis, however, as David Graeber and numerous other authors (David Harvey/free associations, Stevphen Shukaiti, etc., etc.,) have demonstrated through their analyses of the Alter/Anti-Globalization Movement, it is the heterogeneous nature of the movement - the lack of a single demand or single organizational method with a broad even incommensurable constituency - indigenous/first nation peoples, trade unions, environmentalist, primitivist, marxist-socialist, anarchist etc., etc., that provides contemporary movements with the basis upon which to organize an un-sectarian global community of resistance that can point the way forward to an emergent future that extends beyond/exceeds the horizons imposed on us by capital and the state.  

So in conclusion – mischaracterizations and sectarianism are bad however debate and engaged dialogue can to a degree remedy this problem and point toward a better future by helping to elaborate solutions to problems that we are faced with both internally (within the “left” like sectarianism, organizational method, ethics and priorities etc,) and externally (from explicitly abhorrent institutions like the state, and capitalism/corporations, etc,).  And in this spirit I welcome any response, and hope my rejoinder doesn’t come off as overly rude or confrontational.    

 

 

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